Jody asks:
I am in an argument with a sign maker at the high school I'm building. I say it should be Men's Locker Room. He said it's Mens' because Men is plural. Same with Women's Locker Room versus Womens'. Who is correct?
You are, and here's why:
In very old English, we formed plurals not with "s" but with "en": one brother, two brethren; one man, two men; one woman, two women; one child, two children; one chick, two chicken (no kidding!).
Some of those words have stayed in the language. They're plurals, but when we form a possessive of them, we treat them as singular:
Men's wear
Women's locker room
Children's education
It would be especially embarrassing in a school to have the apostrophe in the wrong place, so stick to your guns on this one!
Thank you for posting this. I was just wondering about this question myself!
Posted by: Carolyn J. | July 13, 2007 at 03:14 PM
Great - I just had a discussion with my partner and I guess I won! I was on the men's side ;) !
Posted by: twitter.com/myhealth | September 28, 2009 at 07:30 AM
Thank you so much! Finally this makes sense to me. What about lady's vs. ladies'? Did they use to add "ies" to everything too. Smile, smilies? Thx!
Posted by: me.yahoo.com/a/mWGy7vMr2oJAQz6SN2H3U7PO8Z0- | August 06, 2010 at 08:50 AM
You have that lady's purse. We are going to the ladies meeting at church. They are two different things. Ladies, meaning a lot of women and lady's, meaning possessive..
Posted by: Maria Davidson | August 29, 2010 at 08:54 PM
Hi, Maria--
Yes, "ladies" is the plural of "lady," but when something belongs to a lot of ladies, we need to add an apostrophe to show possession: "We are going to the ladies' meeting at church." That is, the meeting OF the ladies at church.
And for the commenter just before you: When a noun ends with a consonant + y, like lady or army or dynasty, we change it to ies when we make it a plural: ladies, armies, dynasties.
We don't do it when the noun ends with a vowel + y, like monkey or tray: monkeys, trays.
But if it's a proper noun ending in a consonant + y, like Murphy or Kennedy, we just add s: The Murphys are coming to dinner. The Kennedys are one of the great American political dynasties.
Posted by: Crof | August 29, 2010 at 09:05 PM
Okay, somebody tell my spell check.
Posted by: Vernon Bird | October 25, 2010 at 08:42 PM
I'm struggling with the 'men's shirts'.
What if it was the men's shirts' buttons were coming off.
Is it mens' or can 'men' never have an s apostrophe after it because it's already a plural noun.
Thank you!
Posted by: Charlie Parkinson | October 29, 2010 at 02:43 AM
"What if it was the men's shirts' buttons were coming off."
Consider rephrasing: The buttons on the men's shirts were unraveling.
This avoids any confusion regarding two continuous possessives and helps you avoid a hanging preposition.
Posted by: Account Deleted | January 30, 2012 at 02:45 AM
I guess the same logic would apply for "Gent's Gifts", ie. the apostrophe between the "t" and the "s" of "Gents". Thanks for the help, this one had me stuck!
Posted by: Dave Manser | March 15, 2012 at 03:07 AM
1.) It should be Men's Locker Room.
2.) It should be Mens' Locker Room.
(singular word)'s : be used in singular meaning
(plural word)' : be used in plural meaning
...If you use "men" , it show "plural".
**[Thus,the first sentence is wrong and the second sentences is wrong too because "men" already show "plural", so you don't put "s"after the word "men"]**
>>> *** It should be Men' Locker Room. ***
......................(is correct sentence)..................
Posted by: Account Deleted | March 17, 2012 at 09:49 PM
Pricey Pearl,
I used to teach English as a foreign language professionally (in Korea and Germany). Your comment sounds like one a foreign speaker might make. That's because you apparently can't internally hear what's right. Plural possessives are hard for native English speakers, so don't feel bad; however, there is no prohibition with appending an 's to a plural word in order to indicate possession.
Posted by: Scott Seigel | May 22, 2012 at 02:36 PM
Wouldn't 'Mens Room' without the apostrophe also be correct as rather than a room belonging to men, men is acting as an attributive noun? You rarely see Men's Room on a sign. Happy to be proven wrong, but I would not put an apostrophe here.
Posted by: Thebollemonster | September 08, 2012 at 09:01 PM
then what about GIRLS' AND GIRL'S?????????obviously embarrassing..
Posted by: Dipra Sarkhel | August 10, 2014 at 06:03 AM
Would that not also be a "Contraction"? I.E. Do Not Don't. Can Not Can't. That Is That's. So wouldn't Men's be... Men Is?.....
Posted by: Vincent_Hafford | June 26, 2016 at 09:58 PM
No more than "Vincent's comment" is a contraction of "Vincent is comment." The apostrophe-s and s-apostrophe indicate possession, whether singular or plural, and when the plural itself in an archaic one like "men" and "women," we treat the plural noun as if it were singular.
Glad to see this issue is still alive and kicking, almost ten years after I posted about it!
Posted by: Crof | June 26, 2016 at 10:11 PM
We have been having this debate at work for years now (work for a sign manufacturer). I understand that on a sign that says MEN'S LOCKERS, the apostrophe goes after the N due to it's already a plural and shows possession. But is the apostrophe necessary since there are no other grammatical elements? It has to be all caps for accessibility compliance, no verbs, prepositions or even a dangling participle. So we only follow the one rule of the apostrophe. Maybe this is more of a question for the sign industry to answer, but I wanted to check in here first. Thanks
Posted by: Matthew Miller | July 11, 2019 at 06:51 AM
Thank you for asking about this.
For the possessive case, you need the apostrophe. From memory I do not know of any English word “mens”, although there may be some obscure noun “men” (related to “menhir”, perhaps?) of which it would be the plural, but not the possessive.
Every good wish for your English studies, https://wordmaker.info/starting-with/mens.html
Posted by: Alex17pat | September 13, 2022 at 12:49 AM